Epic Systems (MyChart): Never Raised, Never Acquired, Never Public
In one sentence: Judy Faulkner was born in 1943 to a family running a small-town pharmacy and soda fountain in New Jersey, found her calling in one of the first "Computers in Medicine" courses ever taught, at the University of Wisconsin, and one afternoon in the mid-1970s had an epiphany sitting in her living room, ran to the kitchen, grabbed a pad of paper, and started writing the code that became Chronicles, the single patient database still at the heart of Epic today. Over 47 years the company raised exactly one round: $70,000 in equity plus a $70,000 bank loan. It has never made an acquisition and has no intention of ever going public, and both rules are posted, along with eight others, on the wall of every restroom on its campus. Epic's electronic health record system now touches 42% of American hospitals, 58% of outpatient physicians, and 79% of the US population; its patient portal MyChart has 191 million active users; 2024 revenue was $5.7 billion; and of its 607 customers, the company has never truly lost one. Ben calls Faulkner "almost certainly the most successful female entrepreneur in history"; David adds "almost certainly." Recorded in April 2025, when Faulkner was 81, the episode ends with her succession plan already locked into a "purpose trust": never sell, never go public, and the next CEO must be a longtime software developer who came up inside the company.
The Company on One Page
| Date | Event |
|---|---|
| 8/1943 | Judy Faulkner (born Judy Greenfield) is born in Erlton, New Jersey, part of Cherry Hill, a Philadelphia suburb that later produced Taylor Swift and the DuPont family; her father Lou runs a small pharmacy and soda fountain; her mother Del Greenfield graduates high school at 15, later devotes herself to peace advocacy, and in 1985 shares the Nobel Peace Prize as executive director of Oregon Physicians for Social Responsibility, part of the international group Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War |
| ~1947 | Bell Labs, in Murray Hill, New Jersey, invents the transistor, about four years after Faulkner's birth: the technical foundation Microsoft, Epic, and Intel will all eventually stand on |
| 1961 | Faulkner graduates high school and enrolls at Dickinson College to study math; a summer job in a particle physics lab at the University of Rochester hands her a Fortran manual, and she teaches herself the language in a week, quickly becoming one of the lab's best programmers |
| mid-1960s | She applies to five math PhD programs and is accepted to all of them; Stanford and Wisconsin are both in the process of launching computer science departments and unilaterally move her application over; she chooses Wisconsin, a fork in the road that reroutes the entire story |
| during her time at Wisconsin | She takes "Computers in Medicine," likely one of the first courses of its kind anywhere, taught by Dr. Warner Slack; she becomes the star student and is hired to write hospital scheduling software ($5/hour, later $10); rotating through psychiatry, OB-GYN, rehab, inpatient wards, and the ICU, she keeps hearing the same complaint from doctors: no one can see what's happening to the same patient in other departments. This becomes Epic's founding question |
| 1965 | Congress creates Medicare and state-based Medicaid under the Social Security Act, establishing third-party payment and the requirement that hospitals submit standardized documentation to get reimbursed: the first real commercial case for electronic records |
| 1966 | A team at Massachusetts General Hospital, led by recent MIT graduate Neil Pappalardo, starts the COSTAR project and invents a purpose-built language, MUMPS, with the database built directly into the language for high-concurrency, multi-user access; Pappalardo spins the work out in 1968 as Medical Information Technology, later renamed Meditech after MIT objected, still the industry's number-three player behind Epic and Cerner |
| mid-1970s | Sitting in her living room one afternoon, Faulkner has her epiphany: "The sun was shining, I was dis-attentive, I was just sitting there, and suddenly it all came to me. I remember running to the kitchen, grabbing a pad of paper, and just writing code, code, code, code." That code becomes Chronicles, the single integrated database still at Epic's core |
| 1979 | After repeatedly turning down other hospitals asking her to start a company, Faulkner finally relents and founds Human Services Computing; she takes out a $70,000 bank loan for a washer-and-dryer-sized Data General Eclipse minicomputer and raises $70,000 in equity from friends, family, and a handful of physicians, the only outside capital the company will ever take; the first office is a basement in a Madison apartment building shared, at the same time, with the American Girl doll company, whose furniture Epic later buys when it moves out |
| 1983 | The company is renamed Epic Systems, with 9 customers at the time; Warner Slack had already sent Faulkner to spend three days with Meditech's Neil Pappalardo learning how to run a business, and Epic borrows Meditech's playbook wholesale: hire only fresh college graduates, never experienced programmers, regardless of major |
| 1987 | Epic ships its billing module, Resolute, built on the same Chronicles database as clinical records: billing and the chart share one system, the most durable structural advantage the company will ever have over almost every competitor |
| end of 1988 | The company closes its first decade with 24 customers and $1.5 million in revenue, a handful of employees, while Microsoft is already preparing to go public |
| 1992 | Epic launches EpicCare, the industry's first graphical, Windows-based EMR, covering outpatient care only |
| 1995 | Revenue reaches $18 million (the same year Microsoft ships Windows 95 and does $6 billion) |
| 1997–2000 | A recent-grad programmer named Sumit Rana, today Epic's president, gets bored working on a remote-access tool for doctors called Epic Web and asks then-president Carl Dvorak for something harder; MyChart is born from that request and launches in 2000, the industry's first truly integrated patient portal |
| 2001 | EpicCare Inpatient ships; revenue passes $50 million across 88 health system customers |
| 2003 | Kaiser Permanente, then the largest single hospital system in the country (30 hospitals, 400+ clinics, 11,000 physicians, 8.5 million patients), puts out an RFP for a system-wide EMR after an earlier IBM-led, roughly $4 billion attempt collapses; Kaiser initially wants to split the deal, Epic for outpatient and Cerner for inpatient, and Faulkner refuses to split it; in the technical bake-off, president Carl Dvorak flies in overnight and has the team model Kaiser's exact daily transaction volume in Excel, proving the system's headroom, something Cerner can't match; Cerner offers Kaiser a 10% equity stake to win the deal, and Epic declines any equity swap; Epic wins, revenue jumps from $50 million to $162 million, and the LA Times calls it "the Model T of its industry" |
| early 2000s | A co-development deal with Philips to build a radiology product (Philips Extremity Enterprise) folds within a year or two, an expensive detour that leaves Epic with a lasting institutional distrust of partnerships |
| within a few years of Kaiser | After visiting her son, then a developer at Microsoft's Redmond campus, Faulkner decides to copy the Redmond playbook and buys roughly 1,000 acres of farmland in Verona, Wisconsin, for a new headquarters; the campus grows to 1,700 acres and 89 buildings, including Deep Space, the world's largest underground auditorium, seating 11,400 people 74 feet below grade |
| 2007 | Revenue reaches $500 million, nearly 10x what it was before Kaiser |
| 2009 | The HITECH Act, folded into the nearly trillion-dollar American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, allocates $27 billion in direct incentives (up to $36 billion including broader health-IT spending) to reward hospitals for adopting and "meaningfully using" electronic records, worth $44,000–$64,000 per physician |
| 2009–2014 | US hospital EHR adoption jumps from 9% to 95%; as the most reliable vendor in the category, Epic becomes one of the biggest winners of this effectively free buying spree |
| 2011 | Revenue passes $1 billion |
| 2015 | The Department of Defense puts out a $4.3 billion contract, the largest healthcare-IT contract ever at the time, for active-duty military EHR; Cerner wins as subcontractor, and the system doesn't fully go live until late 2024, a nine-year implementation |
| 2017 | The Department of Veterans Affairs puts out a $10 billion contract, also won by Cerner; by the time of this episode's recording it is still "nowhere near fully live," with the VA's own latest estimate being "as early as 2031"; around the same time, Cerner founder Neal Patterson dies of cancer |
| 2018 | Revenue reaches $2.7 billion; all 20 of US News's top academic hospitals are now Epic customers, and roughly 90% of medical students train on the system |
| 2019 | Revenue reaches $3.2 billion |
| 12/2021 | Oracle buys Cerner for $28 billion, a deal widely regarded afterward as one of Oracle's worst acquisitions; Cerner's financials stop being reported separately, and Oracle itself later calls the unit a "headwind" |
| 2023 | Epic goes live at Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Trust in London, its largest single implementation to date, as international revenue climbs to roughly 10–15% of the business |
| 2024 | Revenue reaches $5.7 billion, up 16% from $4.9 billion, a 13% five-year CAGR; MyChart has 191 million active users; 607 customers span 3,200 hospitals, and the only "loss" in the company's history was a single customer who left for six months and came back; R&D runs 35% of operating expenses against essentially zero spent on sales and marketing |
| 4/2025 (at recording) | Faulkner is 81, owns roughly half the company's economics and 100% of the voting shares; she has been moving her non-voting shares into her family foundation, Roots and Wings, having signed the Giving Pledge; on her death, full voting control passes into a "purpose trust" run jointly by her family, five longtime senior managers, and three customer CEOs, with bylaws that permanently forbid a sale or an IPO and require the next CEO to be a long-tenured software developer |
Founder Profile
Judy Faulkner
She was a math kid from the start. In seventh grade, a teacher posed a number-theory problem, why a number divisible by three always has digits that sum to a number divisible by three, and Faulkner walked away certain her future was in math. She graduated high school in 1961 and enrolled at Dickinson College as a math major; the turn came the following summer, working in a particle physics lab at the University of Rochester, where the job required Fortran. The lab handed her a manual, she taught herself the language in a week, and she quickly became one of its best programmers, at a moment when computer science departments barely existed anywhere in the country.
Applying to PhD programs, she sent applications to five math departments and got into all of them. Stanford and Wisconsin happened to be starting computer science departments at exactly that moment, and both schools unilaterally moved her application over once they saw her programming background; she hadn't even realized a computer science PhD was an option. She chose Wisconsin, and went to Madison. She never finished that PhD. She also never left. David's read is blunt: had she gone to Stanford instead, this would be a completely different story, one shaped by Silicon Valley's instincts about platforms and venture capital rather than the one that actually happened.
At Wisconsin she took a class called Computers in Medicine, taught by medical school faculty member Dr. Warner Slack, probably the first course of its kind anywhere in the world. She was the standout student, and the hospital hired her to write physician on-call scheduling software at $5 an hour, later doubled to $10, though she wrote code so efficiently that the raise barely mattered. Rotating through psychiatry, OB-GYN, rehab, inpatient wards, and the ICU, she kept hearing the same complaint from every department: other parts of the hospital were seeing the same patients, and nobody had a way to see what had happened to them elsewhere. The question of a single database that could follow a patient across an entire hospital system, start to finish, became the problem she couldn't stop thinking about.
The answer arrived on its own one afternoon in the mid-1970s. Her own words: "The sun was shining, I was dis-attentive, I was just sitting there, and suddenly it all came to me. Here's how you build it. The integrated system. I remember running to the kitchen, grabbing a pad of paper, and just writing code, code, code, code." That code became Chronicles, a single integrated database that today underlies essentially every Epic application, whether it's the clinical side in EpicCare, billing in Resolute, or specialty modules like Stork for OB-GYN and Beans for nephrology. None of her original code is likely still running, by her own account, but the architectural principle she wrote down that afternoon, one database that everything else pulls from, has held for fifty years.
She never set out to start a company. Other hospitals kept calling, asking for their own copy of Chronicles, and she kept declining, until she finally gave in and founded Human Services Computing in 1979. She took out a $70,000 bank loan for a minicomputer the size of a washer-and-dryer set and raised $70,000 in equity from friends, family, and a handful of physicians: the only outside capital the company has ever taken, in 47 years. In 1983 she renamed it Epic Systems. The word choice reflects a whimsical, almost literary streak that shows up again and again, in product names like Cosmos, Care Everywhere, and Stork, and later in a headquarters campus built to look like something out of a fairy tale: a patient's life, to her, was an epic in the Greek sense. She calls the company "a software factory," and the ten rules she wrote for how it should run are posted, in full public view, on the wall of every restroom and break room on campus.
At 81, she is still described internally as deeply engaged, much like Jensen Huang at NVIDIA, the comparison the hosts return to repeatedly. Forbes estimated her net worth at $7.6 billion in 2021, a figure both hosts think is wildly low; by their own math, based on Epic's revenue and the durability of its moat, the company could plausibly be worth close to $100 billion, which would make her the wealthiest self-made woman on earth, ahead of Estée Lauder, the Taylor Swift enterprise, Oprah, and even Diane Hendricks of ABC Supply, currently Forbes's pick for wealthiest self-made American woman and, like Faulkner, based in Wisconsin. She has already moved her non-voting shares into her family foundation, Roots and Wings, having signed the Giving Pledge. On her death, all of her voting control passes into a purpose trust jointly administered by her family, five longtime senior managers, and three customer CEOs, with bylaws that permanently bar a sale or an IPO and require the next CEO to be a long-tenured software developer. She has spent decades building a company around her own judgment, and then written that judgment directly into its governing documents.
Neil Pappalardo (the uncredited mentor)
Neil Pappalardo never worked at Epic, but he may be the single most consequential outside influence on how it was built. A recent MIT graduate, he led the team at Massachusetts General Hospital that built COSTAR and invented MUMPS, a language with the database built directly in, designed for a hospital's high-concurrency, multi-user reality. In 1968 he spun the work out into a company, first called Medical Information Technology, renamed Meditech after MIT objected; it remains the industry's number-three EMR vendor behind Epic and Cerner. Dr. Warner Slack, who taught the class that set Faulkner on her path, later moved to Harvard, met Pappalardo, and kept working with him, staying in touch with Faulkner the whole time; that connection is how she learned MUMPS in the first place.
In 1979, with no idea how to run a company, Faulkner was sent by Slack to spend three days with Pappalardo in Boston. He ran Meditech the way a software developer would run any system: standardized, documented, with manuals for HR, benefits, and payroll, and a hiring policy of only fresh college graduates, never experienced programmers. David frames this as a knife-edge moment in the company's history: the standard 1970s playbook for a funded startup was that venture money arrived and professional managers replaced the founder, and Faulkner instead landed a mentor who was himself a programmer, not a business-school type. That fork is a large part of why Epic could grow to this scale without ever needing outside capital or a professional CEO layered on top of its founder. The recruiting playbook Epic still runs today, campus hires only, no interest in prior medical background, traces directly back to those three days.
The Playbook
Each entry: origin story → insight → effect.
1. One database underneath everything: Chronicles plus Resolute as structural moat
- Story: before 1987, Epic only did clinical records, not billing, and growth was slow for the first eight years; in 1987 it shipped Resolute, its billing module, on the same Chronicles database as the clinical side, not a separate system bolted on, but a second application on the same foundation.
- Insight: David keeps returning to this point: almost every other vendor except Meditech runs billing and the chart as separate systems, sometimes stitched together through acquisitions; every handoff between systems is a place where data can get lost, and a lost field either costs the hospital money or opens it up to federal fraud liability.
- Effect: Ben's read is that this is Epic's most durable advantage over nearly every competitor, and it's the through-line that explains why Epic kept winning the Kaiser fight and the later DoD/VA comparison.
2. Reliability is the brand: software has to work
- Story: the third of Epic's ten commandments reads "software must work," the fourth "reality equals expectations"; the development methodology is built to minimize the time between a line of code being written and being tested, and the developer who wrote a bug is the one who has to fix it, because a mistake can mean a wrong drug dose or federal billing fraud.
- Insight: customer Jeff Gautney, CIO of Rush University System for Health, put it this way: "You get what you pay for 100% of the time, despite Epic being 'not cheap.'" The goal was never to ship the flashiest, most innovative software; it was to ship software with zero bugs that does exactly what it promised.
- Effect: Kaiser had just been through a failed IBM-led implementation when it started its search; Epic's reputation for hitting its stated timelines and budgets is what won the trust that carried it through every subsequent large deal.
3. A three-day crash course became the company's operating manual
- Story: with no idea how to run a business, Faulkner spent three days in Boston with Meditech's Neil Pappalardo, who standardized everything, hiring manuals, benefits, payroll, and hired only fresh college graduates, never experienced programmers.
- Insight: this is a fork in the road. The standard 1970s script for a funded startup was that outside money arrived and professional managers replaced the founder; Faulkner instead got a mentor who was a programmer, not a business-school hire, which is a large part of why Epic could grow this large without ever needing venture capital or a hired CEO.
- Effect: Epic still hires almost entirely off college campuses, indifferent to medical background, and runs a training process that reformats every new hire into "the Epic way," a playbook that traces directly back to those three days.
4. Go after the hardest customers, not the easiest ones
- Story: Meditech built for small hospitals; Faulkner did the opposite from day one, targeting academic teaching hospitals, later integrated delivery networks, and children's hospitals, because her product ran on Unix infrastructure that only the most complex institutions had.
- Insight: this wasn't a differentiation tactic so much as a deliberate choice to serve the customers with the widest, most demanding set of needs, forcing the product to become genuinely complete rather than merely adequate.
- Effect: that choice is exactly why Epic had a structural edge going into Kaiser and the DoD/VA process: its product was already designed for the hardest cases, while competitors had to catch up.
5. Trade speed for depth: the first 20 years look like a boring business
- Story: 4 customers in 1979, 9 at the 1983 rename, 24 and $1.5 million in revenue by the end of 1988, while Microsoft, founded four years earlier, was already orders of magnitude bigger and preparing to go public.
- Insight: Ben's take is that this wasn't a failed decade; it was a deliberate one. With no capital structure pressuring the company to scale fast, the slow years became time to build muscle, completing the clinical record, then billing, then a graphical interface, piece by piece, ahead of the market actually being ready.
- Effect: by the time PCs became cheap enough for hospitals to afford, and federal legislation started paying the whole industry to digitize, Epic was the only vendor with a genuinely complete, battle-tested product: the slow build didn't cost it time, it meant it was ready the instant the window opened.
6. The Kaiser fight: refuse to split the deal, refuse the equity swap, bet on being right
- Story: in 2003 Kaiser, then the country's largest single hospital system with 8.5 million patients, wanted to split the deal, Epic for outpatient and Cerner for inpatient; Faulkner refused, arguing that splitting billing, clinical, and referral data across two systems would ultimately hurt patients. In the technical bake-off, president Carl Dvorak flew in overnight and had the team model Kaiser's exact daily transaction volume in Excel, proving the system had far more headroom than needed, something Cerner couldn't match. Near the end, Kaiser asked for equity in exchange for the contract; Cerner agreed to give up 10%, and Epic still said no.
- Insight: Faulkner's logic was that making an exception for one customer meant making it for every large customer, which wasn't good for anyone, including Kaiser; it was also a calculated bet, since Epic's outpatient product was mature but its inpatient product, only two years old, hadn't yet earned market trust, and the only way to win was to force the buyer to evaluate both together.
- Effect: winning Kaiser took revenue from $50 million to $162 million overnight, and the LA Times called it "the Model T of its industry": every major RFP after that could point to Kaiser as proof.
7. A failed partnership left permanent scar tissue
- Story: in the early 2000s, Philips came to Epic wanting to co-develop a radiology product, Philips providing distribution and sales relationships, Epic providing the engineering; the team hired in the Netherlands and spent a year or more building it, and the whole thing folded within a year or two of launch.
- Insight: that expensive lesson taught Epic to treat any partnership as an uncontrollable external risk with no track record of success, and the company's instinct ever since has been to write every layer itself rather than integrate with anyone else's.
- Effect: this is the real origin of Epic's long-standing reputation for being closed off and hard to integrate with; it isn't arrogance, it's a scar from one real failure, one the company has only started to loosen, cautiously, in the past 15 to 20 years.
8. Legislation accidentally became a tailwind: meaningful use flattened the entire industry's buying window into one moment
- Story: the 2009 HITECH Act, folded into a nearly trillion-dollar stimulus bill, put $27 billion in direct incentives behind hospitals adopting and "meaningfully using" electronic records, worth $44,000 to $64,000 per physician; within five years, US hospital EHR adoption went from 9% to 95%.
- Insight: that money rewarded the most reliable vendor, not the most innovative one; with the software effectively free, hospitals naturally picked the option with the least risk. And by pulling decades' worth of future RFPs into a single five-year window, the government effectively closed the door on any hypothetical future competitor that might have out-innovated the incumbents later.
- Effect: David's caveat matters here: Epic was likely going to win anyway, and HITECH mostly pulled that outcome forward rather than creating it. But it came at a cost: doctors now click through far more required fields, purely because the law defined what counted as "meaningful use."
9. Altruistic capitalism: leaving bargaining power deliberately on the table
- Story: Epic's average price increase has stayed around 2% a year, below inflation; MyChart has never had a price increase in its history; every customer's CEO, CIO, and CFO get an annual report card benchmarking them against similar-sized peers; and in 47 years, Epic has never sued or been sued by a customer.
- Insight: Ben quotes an old Jeff Bezos line about Amazon: in the long run, there's no daylight between what the customer wants and what the company wants. Epic captures only a small slice of a hospital's total IT spend, roughly $10 million a year per customer on average, even though a mid-sized health system might employ a hundred full-time staff just to administer its Epic instance; that isn't a lack of pricing power, it's a choice not to use all of it.
- Effect: that restraint buys something close to religious customer loyalty. No customer has ever systematically walked away, and "nobody gets fired for buying Epic" is a real sentence hospital executives say to each other.
10. Network effects on two legs: shared records and a standardized labor market
- Story: Care Everywhere lets Epic instances at different hospitals pull each other's records directly, and today it moves 20 million patient records a day. The feature almost didn't happen: the first customer CEO to accept it did so without realizing it was in the contract, and later admitted he would have declined it if he'd known; Faulkner called it "pure luck," and once she'd won that customer, she made the feature mandatory across every Epic customer, with no opt-out.
- Insight: that's only one leg of the network effect. The quieter one is that roughly 90% of US medical students now train on Epic, so hospitals hiring new doctors and nurses have to weigh what those hires already know.
- Effect: put together, "everyone around me is on Epic" becomes a reason to choose Epic independent of the product's quality. Ben mentions the one clinic near his family still on Cerner, and how visibly annoying that is to everyone who deals with it.
11. Enterprise sales taken to its limit: HIPAA makes bottom-up growth structurally impossible
- Story: HIPAA requires that a business associate agreement be signed by someone with legal authority to bind the whole organization, not by an individual doctor or department; that alone rules out any competitor trying to win the market the way Slack or Figma did, letting a small team adopt a tool and having it spread up through the organization from below.
- Insight: Ben's point is that this is what separates healthcare software from nearly every modern SaaS category. Enterprise sales are already slow, with decision-makers separated from end users and interfaces that tend to look worse for it; healthcare stacks compliance risk and life-or-death stakes on top of all of that.
- Effect: Epic turned that constraint into an advantage. The company has roughly eight "salespeople," all of whom only respond to inbound interest, and it still dominates the market because it long ago made the CIO-level sale, the only route that actually works here, into pure muscle memory.
12. Founder tenure is itself a moat: 47 years of one person's judgment
- Story: from founding the company in 1979 to this episode's recording in 2025, Faulkner has been its only leader, a tenure the hosts compare to Jensen Huang's 31 years at NVIDIA, Mark Zuckerberg's 21 at Meta, and Warren Buffett's more than 50 at Berkshire Hathaway: genuinely rare company.
- Insight: 47 years is long enough to write one person's temperament directly into an organization, from the ten commandments on the restroom wall, to a no-budgets culture built on trust, to a hiring philosophy of taking in college graduates and reformatting them into "the Epic way": none of it decided by committee, all of it one person's judgment sustained across decades.
- Effect: that's also why the succession plan is handled so carefully. On her death, voting control passes into a purpose trust run by her family, five longtime senior managers, and three customer CEOs, with bylaws permanently forbidding a sale or an IPO and requiring the next CEO to be a long-tenured developer: an attempt to weld her judgment into the company's future by charter, not just by habit.
Moat Analysis (the 7 Powers framework)
This episode doesn't run the full seven the way the Microsoft one does. The hosts work through five in detail: Switching Costs, Scale Economies, Network Economies, Branding, and Process Power, which they flag outright as the weakest and most debatable call. Counter-positioning and Cornered Resource never make it into that list, though the phrase "cornered resource" does show up once, earlier in the episode, when David compares Faulkner's own programming talent to Bill Gates and Paul Allen's at early Microsoft; that's about the founding-era scarcity of talent, not a moat claim about the company today. The table below reflects exactly what the hosts said, with the two missing rows marked as such rather than filled in for them.
| Power | Verdict | Evidence |
|---|---|---|
| Takeoff phase | No | The hosts say plainly that there was little to no power in the early years; hospitals hadn't adopted computing yet, and Epic's one real asset was time, using a slow-developing niche to fund itself while it built the full suite it would eventually need |
| Counter-positioning | Not addressed | No separate verdict given in this episode |
| Scale Economies | Yes | Product breadth can't be funded without a large customer base to amortize development costs against; that base is also what lets Epic bundle immature new modules into existing contracts for free, buying loyalty ahead of the competition |
| Switching Costs | Yes, the strongest call of the episode | "The biggest switching cost piece of software ever." Beyond ordinary ERP-level sunk cost, mistakes here can kill people; a hospital has its entire nervous system riding on this software, which raises the bar for leaving far above any typical enterprise system |
| Network Economies | Yes, in two forms | One is Care Everywhere, records moving directly between hospitals on Epic; the other is quieter: new doctors and nurses train on Epic in school, so hospitals hiring them have to weigh what their staff already knows |
| Process Power | Yes, but contested, the weakest call | Development teams build for years on MUMPS/Caché, a stack almost nobody outside the industry uses (the language itself is licensed from a third party, InterSystems, not owned by Epic); skills built there don't transfer easily to a competitor, a defensive, if unglamorous, form of process power |
| Branding | Yes | "Nobody gets fired for buying Epic" is the healthcare-industry echo of "nobody gets fired for buying IBM." It isn't a consumer brand (MyChart doesn't count as one); it's a trust brand inside hospital administration circles, strong enough that Ben judges Epic would likely still win deals even if none of the other six powers existed |
| Cornered Resource | Not addressed | The nearest thing to this language appears earlier, in the founding-capital section, where David compares Faulkner's programming talent to Bill Gates and Paul Allen's, but that's about 1979-era scarce talent, not a verdict on the mature company's moat |
Bear Case
- A ceiling on international upside: outside the US, willingness to pay for healthcare administration software is far lower; if future growth leans heavily on international expansion, the ceiling may be lower than it looks.
- The Particle Health lawsuit: a startup is suing Epic for an alleged Sherman Antitrust Act violation, and the case is still pending; if it lands badly, it's the kind of event that could change the company's trajectory.
- The Cures Act's information-blocking rule: the law makes it legal for browser extensions, screen scraping, and RPA tools to pull data out of Epic's systems, and Epic has no way to stop it. The hosts sketch a theoretical risk scenario, a third-party interface scraping its way into 70% of the customer base, becoming the preferred front end, and then persuading hospitals to swap out Epic underneath it, but judge the odds of that actually happening as close to zero.
- A best-of-breed shift, if interoperability genuinely improves: hospitals could start mixing best-in-class point solutions instead of buying a single integrated suite; even so, Epic still has Microsoft's old playbook available, folding those point solutions into its own enterprise license one by one.
- A broader paradigm shift: AI, or a wholesale move to value-based care, could change what a hospital even is in ways that reduce the need for an EMR system as currently understood; both hosts admit this case is largely speculative, without much concrete evidence behind it yet.
Bull Case
- The customer base is expanding beyond hospitals to payers, pharmaceutical companies, and biotech, with automated prior authorization flagged as the most obvious near-term opportunity.
- Ambient AI is already real: products from Microsoft/Nuance, Abridge, and Suki are integrated with Epic and let physicians focus on patients instead of screens, with strong user reviews; one hospital CIO floats a more radical possibility, an EHR that fades into the background entirely as AI handles recording, billing, adjudication, and payment end to end. The hosts stay skeptical of that version but agree it's straightforwardly good for Epic shareholders if it happens.
- Regulation itself is becoming a moat: as new interoperability standards like TEFCA arrive, the best-resourced incumbent is usually first to comply, which further entrenches its position rather than opening the door to challengers.
- There's real pricing headroom: Epic currently captures only a small share of a customer's roughly $10 million annual spend, and could plausibly charge more if it chose to, though both hosts think it probably won't.
- There's a path to becoming a real platform: Epic already has an early version of this in App Orchard, and if it decided to build a genuine platform layer for third parties, there's meaningfully more room to grow from here.
Deep Cuts
- Her mother's Nobel Peace Prize: David traced this back through an obituary for Faulkner's mother, Del Greenfield, who in 1985 shared the Nobel Peace Prize as executive director of Oregon Physicians for Social Responsibility, part of the international group Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War. It isn't mentioned anywhere in the public record either host had found; the company itself later confirmed it.
- Sharing a building with American Girl: Epic's first office was a basement in a Madison apartment building, shared at the same time with the American Girl doll company, founded by Pleasant Rowland and later acquired by Mattel; when American Girl moved out, Epic bought some of its furniture.
- A week to learn Fortran: working a summer job in a particle physics lab at the University of Rochester, Faulkner was handed a Fortran manual and taught herself the language in a week, quickly becoming one of the lab's best programmers, at a time when most American universities didn't yet have a computer science department at all.
- The overnight Excel model that won Kaiser: in the technical bake-off, the two companies presented from separate rooms in the same building, with Kaiser bouncing between them all day. President Carl Dvorak flew in the night before, found the team preparing a theoretical capacity argument, scrapped it, and had them build an exact Excel model of Kaiser's actual daily transaction flow overnight, proving the system's real headroom; Cerner had no comparable model, and both hosts point to this as the turning point in the process.
- The ten commandments, in full: posted in every restroom and break room, open to any visitor: (1) do not go public, (2) do not acquire or be acquired, (3) software must work, (4) reality equals expectations, (5) keep commitments, even the unspoken ones, (6) focus on competency, do not tolerate mediocrity, (7) have standards, be fair to all, (8) have courage; what you put up with is what you stand for, (9) teach philosophy and culture, (10) be frugal; do not take on debt for operations. Ben notes that not one of the ten mentions patients or a medical mission; it's purely a document about how to run a company.
- Wedding bells for every new client: whenever Epic signs a new customer, wedding bells ring campus-wide, the idea being that the customer has just been married into the family for life.
- An 18-year-old hiring test written by a teenager: in the late 1980s, Faulkner found interviews weren't predicting who'd actually be a good developer, and her son happened to be competing in statewide programming contests; she asked him to write a test she could use to screen candidates. That test was used for 18 years, and most applicants who scored well enough got an offer without ever being interviewed.
- The scale of Cosmos: Epic aggregates anonymized patient data from across its customer base, wherever it lives, on-prem, on AWS, on Azure, into a single queryable system called Cosmos, now covering 295 million patients and 15 billion individual encounters, free to any customer who contributes data; a doctor can query for "lookalike" cases anywhere in the network. The hosts compare it to the Flint, Michigan water crisis: the same anomaly, buried in paper records, would have needed a research grant to find, while a queryable database surfaces it immediately.
- A decade lost inside government contracting: the DoD contract, put out in 2015, didn't go fully live until late 2024, a nine-year build; the VA contract, put out in 2017, was still nowhere near complete at the time of recording, with the agency's own latest estimate being "as early as 2031." Both hosts quote an old industry saying: you can make more money off a failed government contract than a successful one.
- The valuation thought experiment: Forbes's 2021 estimate of Faulkner's net worth, $7.6 billion, implies a roughly $15 billion company, a number both hosts call absurdly low. Applying the roughly 30x EBITDA multiple Oracle paid for Cerner, or a 9x revenue multiple, a reasonable comp for public SaaS companies, gets you closer to $50 billion; their own guess, if Epic were actually public, lands somewhere near $100 billion, which would put Faulkner's stake around $50 billion, make her the wealthiest self-made woman in the world, and place Epic among roughly the 150 most valuable companies globally, in the same tier as Shopify, Arm, Lockheed Martin, and Starbucks.
Era & Industry Trivia
- Bush was already talking about electronic records in 2006: David's research corrects a common misconception. Most people credit Obama's healthcare reform for pushing EMR adoption, but George W. Bush's 2006 State of the Union already called for "wider use of electronic records and other health information technology," a genuinely bipartisan starting point that eventually became the HITECH Act.
- Standardizing medical records traces back to 1912: a group from the American Medical Association and American Hospital Association first tried to standardize physician documentation at Massachusetts General Hospital, producing a standardized "treatment diary" in 1919; the Association of Health Record Librarians of North America followed in 1928, funded, the hosts note, by the Rockefeller Foundation, an unexpected echo back to Acquired's own Standard Oil episodes.
- What MUMPS stands for: the Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System. Epic still runs on its modern descendant, Caché, a language licensed from a separate company, InterSystems, rather than something Epic owns itself.
- Cerner and Epic were founded the same year: Neal Patterson started Cerner in Kansas City in 1979, the same year as Epic, and took almost the opposite path, heavy acquisition (including Siemens Health), a public listing, outside capital, more than thirty companies eventually merged together before Oracle bought the whole thing for $28 billion in 2021.
- US healthcare spending is nearly double the UK's as a share of GDP: the episode opens with this comparison, roughly 18% of US GDP versus 11% in the UK and about 6% in Singapore, the origin of Ben's running joke that researching any American healthcare question eventually leads back to Singapore.
- "Nobody gets fired for buying IBM" shows up twice: once mocking IBM's own failed Kaiser implementation ("we're at the end of that era, but it's still a little that era"), and again when the hosts rewrite it themselves as "nobody gets fired for buying Epic," describing the company's current standing among hospital executives.
- Peter Drucker called hospitals the most complex organization humans have ever tried to manage, a line the episode quotes to explain why implementing a hospital system looks less like software rollout and more like military logistics.
Cross-domain Notes
This episode has no strong intersection with the PH (geopolitics) discourse network, and none is forced here. It's a story that happens almost entirely inside the United States, driven by insurance economics, HIPAA compliance, and federal legislation; the one international thread, the NHS rollout in London, is a business expansion, not something that touches PH's national-level concerns.
Two faint echoes are worth flagging, both methodological rather than narrative, and neither is stretched into a geopolitical reading here. Ben describes Epic as the industry's gatekeeper, the entity that decides which new software actually reaches hospitals, which is the same underlying "chokepoint" logic that recurs in the TSMC and NVIDIA episodes, just applied to healthcare procurement instead of semiconductor manufacturing. Separately, the episode's aside about Rockefeller Foundation funding behind 1928-era medical-record standardization links back to Acquired's own Standard Oil episodes, a cross-episode connection inside this domain rather than a bridge to PH.
Pages Worth Creating
- Entities: judy-faulkner (founder page: the math prodigy who taught herself Fortran in a week, the living-room epiphany that became Chronicles, 47 years without outside capital, the purpose-trust succession plan), neil-pappalardo (may stay unbuilt; Meditech's founder, co-creator of MUMPS, the mentor who taught Faulkner how to run a company in three days)
- Concepts: 7 Powers 护城河框架 (existing page; this episode is a rare case of running through only five of the seven rather than the full set, with Switching Costs landing as the strongest call), vertical-market-software (a new concept worth building: David's core insight in the quintessence section, that horizontal software companies must resist getting too close to any one customer's feedback while vertical-market companies should dig as deep as possible into a single customer type, is a reusable analytical framework alongside Counter-Positioning(反向定位) and 学习曲线(Learning Curve); Epic and this episode's own comparison set, Bloomberg, Veeva Systems, and Constellation Software, are natural candidate cases under the same framework)
Source · acquired